Juror #05 ('Lucy Lou') gave an interview on True Crime Tak With Frankmeister on Apr. 21, 2026. This page documents each factual claim made during that interview alongside the court record. Timestamps refer to the interview runtime. Voir dire questions are reproduced verbatim from the court record.
This page covers Juror #05 only. For Juror #02 (Mia McHaffey), see the FB thread and analysis.
Juror describes being called to jury duty, surviving voir dire, and ultimately being seated. States she answered all questions honestly and was not trying to be selected.
The following questions were submitted during voir dire. Questions marked Asked were posed to this juror on the record; those marked Not Asked were submitted but not posed.
| Asked by | Question | Status |
|---|---|---|
| Court | Have you heard or read about this case? | Asked |
| Court | Do you have any personal connection to anyone involved in this case? | Asked |
| Court | Can you set aside anything you have heard and decide this case solely on the evidence presented at trial? | Asked |
| State | Do you believe that a person can commit a crime and later have no memory of doing so? | Asked |
| State | Do you believe that a person's mental health history is relevant to their guilt or innocence? | Not Asked |
| State | Would you be able to convict based solely on circumstantial evidence if you found it compelling? | Asked |
| Defense | Do you believe that a confession obtained under psychotic duress is reliable? | Not Asked |
| Defense | Are you familiar with the concept of false confessions? | Asked |
| Defense | Do you believe it is possible for an innocent person to confess to a crime they did not commit? | Asked |
| Defense | Have you formed an opinion about the guilt or innocence of the defendant? | Asked |
| Defense | Can you consider the defendant's mental health as a factor in evaluating the reliability of his statements? | Not Asked |
| Defense | Are you able to hold the State to its burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt? | Asked |
| Defense | Would you be able to acquit if the State did not prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, even if you personally believed the defendant was probably guilty? | Asked |
| Defense | Do you have any bias for or against law enforcement testimony? | Asked |
| Defense | Do you follow any true crime content — podcasts, YouTube channels, social media accounts? | Asked |
| Defense | Have you posted publicly about this case? | Asked |
| Defense | Do you know anyone else on this jury panel? | Asked |
| Defense | Do you have any strong feelings about the victims or their families that might affect your impartiality? | Not Asked |
| Defense | Can you follow the court's instruction that the defendant's decision not to testify cannot be held against him? | Asked |
| Defense | Are you familiar with the Delphi community or the families of the victims? | Asked |
| Defense | Would you be able to evaluate expert testimony critically, including testimony from law enforcement experts? | Asked |
| Defense | Do you have any professional background in law enforcement, forensics, or the legal system? | Asked |
| Defense | Is there anything about this case that you believe would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror? | Asked |
| Defense | If the evidence left you with a reasonable doubt, could you vote not guilty? | Asked |
Juror states she did not follow the case closely before trial and had only a general awareness of it from local news.
Juror identified herself publicly as "Lucy Lou" on social media, an account that had posted about the case prior to jury selection. The voir dire question about public posting was asked.
Describes the sequestration process beginning immediately after being seated. Hotel was a long-stay style with individual rooms with kitchens.
Consistent with sequestration conditions described elsewhere in the interview (see #53).
Trial lasted about six weeks. Jurors had Saturdays as half-days and Sundays for family visits from 1 to 5 p.m.
Trial record confirms six-week duration. Family visit and half-day Saturday structure confirmed by Murder Sheet juror interview.
Jurors were not allowed phones, internet, or any outside contact. No access to news coverage of the trial during sequestration.
Standard sequestration protocol; consistent with court record.
Allen made approximately 60+ confessions. Defense focused on mental health as their primary theory.
The "60+ confessions" figure conflates documented psychotic statements made during a period of documented psychosis with formal confessions. The defense's mental health case was not a "theory" but a factual presentation of Allen's documented psychiatric deterioration under solitary confinement.
Defense's mental health argument did not hold water because Allen made 60+ confessions.
Allen was involuntarily medicated with Haldol for the first time on Apr. 14, 2023, after approximately one month of documented psychotic symptoms. A Treatment Review Committee Hearing was held; three independent doctors reviewed records from intake to present and reached a unanimous diagnosis: psychotic.
Allen's first confession was to his wife, 19 days after his arrest.
The Nov. 14, 2022 phone call with Kathy Allen contains no confession. Allen maintained his innocence throughout. He did not confess to shit on that call.
More confessions started in Apr. and May. He was not on medication yet; did not start Haldol until Jun..
Allen was involuntarily medicated with Haldol for the first time on Apr. 14, 2023 not Jun. A Treatment Review Committee convened after approximately one month of documented psychotic symptoms; three independent physicians reviewed Drs. Martin and Wala's records and notes from intake and reached a unanimous diagnosis of psychotic disorder.
Juror asked a psychiatrist on the stand whether Allen could have been faking symptoms to avoid general population. The doctor said yes, he could have been feigning symptoms.
The following juror questions were submitted during testimony. Status indicates whether they were actually posed.
For Dr. Grassian:
For Dr. Westcott:
For Dr. Wala:
For Dr. Martin:
Allen made a statement: "I'm not crazy. I'm just acting like it." (attributed to testimony from a guard or warden).
Michael Clemons Log Sheet, Apr. 7, 2023.
Videos shown at trial depicted Allen harming himself. The dates on these videos started Apr. 13th and on, after he received discovery.
Dr. Wala's notes from March 21, 2023 document Allen communicating that he was "experiencing some mental health issues and wasn't feeling right in his head," weeks before discovery was delivered. DOC Video 972 documents the following:
Defense dropped off discovery on March 24. When Defense visited on Apr. 3, Allen still hadn't received his discovery but did start making general confessions on Apr. 3, 2023 (e.g., "I did it evidently"), which makes no sense as a post-discovery reaction. Bizarre behaviors were documented as early as mid-March.
On May 25, 2023, Allen paced for two hours and banged the back and front of his head on the metal door for about an hour. Despite self-injury and a visible goose egg, no one checked on him.
Allen received an emergent involuntary injection on Jun. 5, 2023 due to self-harming: "This is an emergent involuntary injection, it doesn't fall under the other shot, so this is an additional shot to stop him from head banging."
Allen's behavior changed/deteriorated after receiving discovery: "he knew what they had on him." Also noticed behavior change approximately two days after his attorneys visited him.
Defense dropped off discovery on March 24. When Defense visited on Apr. 3, Allen still had not received his discovery, but he did start making general confessions on Apr. 3, 2023 (i.e., "I did it evidently") after a visit with his defense attorneys. His bizarre behaviors had been documented as early as mid-March; Dr. Wala attributed the change to the attorney visit, which is also inconsistent with the timeline.
Even setting aside confessions made after Haldol, he still confessed 19 days after incarceration before any medication or doctor visit.
Still no. The Nov. 14, 2022 phone call to Kathy Allen does not contain a confession. See #8.
Allen "talked about things only the killer would know." Defense tried to challenge this via Dr. Wala's testimony, but juror found Wala credible because she spent extensive time with Allen, "almost every day."
Defense attorney Rozzi addressed this directly. There were hundreds of references to a potential van in discovery because it was a well-known, long-standing investigative theory. Zero vans or vehicles drove by anything during the crime window.
When Dr. Wala was called to the stand, Allen put his head down and started shaking it. Wala testified Allen told her he "took the back way out" (through the cemetery), which explains why nobody saw him leaving.
The State maintained that Sarah Carbaugh saw Allen walking down 300 N so crystal clearly that they used her sketch for years before acknowledging Betsy's sketch. Wala said Allen said he stayed off the trail when leaving. One question: how does someone stay off something they're on? Carbaugh saw him just fine, but none of the people right where she saw him, nor the HHS video, saw him, nor the people on the trail. Pick a lane.
Allen made a written statement (she thinks in March) to the warden saying he was ready to confess.
"I am ready to officially for confess Killing Abby or Libby" was backdated by the Warden to March 5 even though it happened on Apr. 5.
In phone calls to his wife, Allen said "I hope you forgive me. I hope you still love me." He wanted to apologize to the families. He "got with God" (was not religious before but wanted a Bible).
Allen's mother cut him off every time he tried to confess on calls. Wife told him "We don't need to be talking about this." Juror attributes this to attorney instructions about recorded calls.
Dr. Wala told Allen not to discuss his case with her or anyone else but his attorneys. That context was available to the jury.
Allen was close to his mother. On a phone call, he asked his mother "Did Kathy tell you that I got with God?" and then "Did she tell you I did it?"; his mother cut him off with "We're not going to talk about that."
Dr. Wala told Allen not to discuss his case with anyone but his attorneys. The context for why family members redirected him was available to the jury.
Juror asked doctors on the stand: if Allen was psychotic, how is he not psychotic right now sitting normally in court? Asked if he could have "snapped out of it." Claims the judge would not allow her question.
This question was submitted for four doctors and was not asked of any of them. The record shows it was not posed to Westcott, Martin, Wala, or Grassian.
Libby's recorded video and precise timestamps were compelling. Allen's vehicle was captured on surveillance camera. During interrogation, when shown the picture of his car, Allen said "Okay" and did not deny it was his.
The car in the surveillance image was not even a Ford Focus. From the October 13, 2022 interrogation transcript:
After the Apr. 2019 press conference (Doug Carter asking anyone who parked at the CPS building to come forward), Allen knew it was his car but did not come forward. His wife made him make a statement three days later.
From the October 13, 2022 interview, Allen states he went to see his mother that morning, left around 11/11:15, and was at the trail around noon. He says he came forward after his wife suggested it, went to the Sheriff's station, and was contacted by a DNR officer who looked at his phone and took his information. He also states he pulled over when the officer called and provided his account.
Defense argued about a headphone being plugged into Libby's phone while it was underneath Abby. Juror dismissed this, saying liquid/dirt in a charging port causes "ghost touching" (phone screen acting on its own).
The Defense did not "argue" this. Defense expert Stacy Eldridge testified to the phone data and state examiner's report showing that Libby's knowledgeC database recorded wired headphones being plugged in at 5:45 and unplugged at 10:32. Libby's phone screen showed zero signs of damage or ghost-touching when recovered; the examiner took pictures of it working correctly.
Ghost touch is typically a hardware issue (damaged screen, malfunctioning digitizer, poor-quality charger, or moisture). Common fixes include cleaning the screen, removing screen protectors, restarting, or replacing the screen. Libby's phone exhibited none of these conditions.
Witnesses saw Bridge Guy entering the trail area but nobody saw him leaving. Allen had no proof of what time he got home.
Defense asked the judge to exclude evidence that could have shown Allen's location: the geofence data. The judge granted the Defense's own request to exclude it. Per Jerry Holeman's deposition, the geofence data placed Allen at his residence.
Allen changed his timelines three times. Original statement: at the trail between 1:30 and 3:30. Interrogation video: "a little before noon, around noon, 1, 1:30, 1:45," changing each time.
Holeman and Dulin changed the timeline — not Allen. Then both forgot talking to the man they were actively manhunting. From the Oct 13, 2022 interview:
This is a single consistent account, not multiple changing timelines. Allen consistently described arriving around noon and spending about an hour on the trail.
Dr. Kohr testified it was possible a box cutter was used as the weapon. Allen had confessed at one point that he used a box cutter and disposed of it behind the CVS in a trash can.
Notably: why did investigators clear Ron Logan's box cutter confessions approximately one week after Allen supposedly confessed to the same thing to Wala?
Allen was "spooked" by a van (per what he told Monica Wala) and made the girls cross Deer Creek.
Zero vans or vehicles drove by during the crime window.
Claims about bodies being moved are "bogus"; juror saw pictures of blood pools and "gelatinous blood that sat there overnight."
The pool of blood with a bind rune made of sticks arranged on top of it. Blood was everywhere and two dead children sprawled in the open all night, and hundreds of searchers missed it all night and all morning. They also missed Libby's bright neon t-shirt in the water.
Allen's 2017 cell phone was missing from evidence. Police had 20 other cell phones and two pagers from the household, but not that one. Allen said his wife recycled it. Juror later learned (post-trial) that wife told officers he ran over it with a lawn mower.
Kathy Allen was referring to one of his Razr flip phones, not the 2017 phone. Allen gave Dulin the phone he used in 2017; Dulin sent his information to ISP; ISP checked his phone info; and then Unified Command cleared him. From Kathy Allen's October 13, 2022 interview:
The ran-over phone was a Razr flip phone, not the 2017 phone investigators cleared him through.
Allen's cell phone search history included specific searches about kidnappings and particular TV shows he was watching. He was keeping track of the case starting Jun. 2022 when arrested.
Kathy Allen was prepared to testify about those searches the day the State tried to introduce them. Defense objected to the lack of certifiability of Vido's "report" and Gull took the objection under advisement. Gull waited until after the State called their last witness to rule, and 0.2 seconds after conditionally admitting the exhibit, the State rested. Zero direct or cross examination was had on the searches.
A keepsake box on Allen's dresser contained a bullet that "matched the gun."
Oberg's first six attempts to "match" the cartridge to his gun by manually cycling rounds failed to produce a match. She then fired test rounds for comparison against an unfired round. Defense expert Warren testified that Oberg's own report and lab notes showed an insufficient agreement to be a match. Oberg reluctantly testified that she had to use research (not even conducted for Allen's gun) to supplement her "sufficient agreement" finding, because there was no actual sufficient agreement.
A pair of underwear was not found / was missing.
Also a sock.
In one of the interrogation videos, Allen admitted to being at the trails early that morning, making a comment "And when I went back" — which she interprets as him scoping the area earlier.
From the October 13, 2022 interview at 32:42 and 39:01:
"Went back" refers to turning around on the bridge and to driving the black car again after the van purchase, not an early-morning reconnaissance trip.
On Libby's phone video, she heard Libby say "Is that a gun?" (or "that be a gun").
The audio is: "This is the path dat be a gun." Every expert who was asked over the years stated the limited pixels and audio quality could not positively identify the figure or the full audio. Do not put false words in a victim's mouth.
Prosecution showed posters blown up at 60x magnification of markings on the unspent cartridge compared under a comparison microscope. Ejector marks and firing pin marks matched Allen's gun. The jury watched an entire day of video on how firearms are manufactured and how internal parts wear uniquely.
The blown-up posters were Defense exhibits, not prosecution exhibits. Judge Gull admitted them conditionally. Oberg herself testified: "I did not rely on the photos to come to a conclusion." The Defense moved to admit them (Exhibits Q through V); the State objected. Gull conditionally admitted them with the caveat that the jury understood Oberg did not rely on the photos to make her determination.
"It was just like a fingerprint." The Defense expert was brought from Tennessee or Kentucky but never physically examined the cartridge. His analysis was "all by eye to paper."
No one testified that it was "just like a fingerprint." Defense expert Dr. Eric Warren reviewed Oberg's case file, three different reports and associated case files, microphotographs taken on the comparison microscope, and other supporting documentation including a transcript of Oberg's deposition. Warren confirmed he received everything he requested and that it was adequate to form opinions.
Prosecution expert (Oberg) had testified in over 100 cases. They tested Allen's gun with numerous rounds and 10 dummy rounds, comparing markings to the crime scene cartridge; "markings were right on."
Oberg's first six attempts to match the cartridge to Allen's gun by manually cycling rounds failed to produce a match. See #32.
Not all witnesses were worth being there. Defense had an elderly woman testify about seeing a man by her mailbox in the morning, but she couldn't even locate her house on the map.
Teresa Liebert and her husband Dave signed affidavits and law enforcement memorialized their interviews. Dave Liebert was also interviewed by WTHR with the freshest of memories on February 15.
Some witnesses had to read from their own prior statements because they couldn't remember what they had written.
As opposed to the investigators who destroyed their notes, even though the entire point of placing Allen under 24/7 surveillance was to preserve evidence for future litigation, per the Warden's own testimony.
The witness who made the most impact on her was Melissa Oberg, the firearms/weapons expert.
Contrast with the Murder Sheet juror, who described actively discounting the firearms evidence entirely during deliberations:
The Murder Sheet juror described deliberations as jurors writing down what they believed and what they didn't, then discussing whether doubted evidence still left open a possibility of guilt. After hearing the first few "guilty" votes, she says she already knew the verdict would be unanimous and cried.
In interrogation video, Allen doesn't move his chair to face his wife, keeps repeating "I know you know me. You know me." Juror characterizes this as a manipulation/gaslighting tactic.
If he was gaslighting her, he would have told her she was crazy. Instead, he apologized for miscommunicating immediately. Law enforcement, not Allen, lied to Kathy, then leveraged her as an object and sent her in distraught, hoping to get Allen to deny lying to her or to LE. It didn't work, because LE were the only lying liars in that room.
In the video, Allen told his wife "They're probably going to come in and take you away from me," constantly wanting her to feel sorry for him.
They did, in fact, come in and take her away from him. He was right.
Allen's daughter testified and would not look at him. She looked straight ahead and was crying. Meanwhile, Allen had "the biggest smile on his face and his eyes were bulging out."
From the direct examination of Brittany Zapanta:
Allen placed himself on the bridge at the same time the girls were at the park. He described himself wearing the same clothing as Bridge Guy. His interrogation videos were the most damaging evidence.
From the October 13, 2022 interview:
Defense tried to make Allen look small/tiny in court, seating him next to Baldwin (who was large) instead of the other attorney, suggesting he couldn't have been Bridge Guy.
He is tiny. Libby and Abby were taller than him. Libby was bigger and stronger than him. Both girls were healthy and athletic. Allen was old, out of shape, and had a documented heart condition.
Allen's jaws would clench and he would look angry at certain testimony. During autopsy photos, he leaned over to his attorney, said something, and laughed.
Only boots on the ground can answer that one.
When the guilty verdict was read, Allen had no reaction, staring straight forward with a blank look on his face.
Only boots on the ground can answer that one.
Juror does not believe Allen "found God." Believes carrying a Bible into court every day was likely advised by his attorneys.
The Bible was the only item Allen was allowed to have for approximately six months of captivity. Literature would suggest it became a comfort object under those conditions. That said, there is no disagreement that the State's claim that his confessions were part of a "new religious awakening" was not credible.
Blood pools and blood on hands indicate one of the girls was leaning against a tree holding her neck to stop bleeding. Sticks thrown on bodies were not cult markings but a hasty concealment attempt. Believes Allen was spooked by searchers already looking for the girls.
So he hastily threw sticks that landed in bind rune formation because he was spooked into hurrying even though he stayed there with the bodies for the next hour and a half? And the first searchers didn't arrive until after he left?
People claiming Allen had heart problems and couldn't traverse the terrain are wrong but he was in the military, they were hikers, he fished out there frequently, and he admitted he went there all the time.
Military service was approximately 30 years prior. Allen also had a documented heart condition at the time of the crime. Physical condition from decades ago does not reflect current fitness, particularly with a cardiac history.
A doctor testified Allen had a sex addiction. Allen told someone (Wala?) he wanted to sexually assault the girls and was interrupted.
Allen also said he was King Michael and asked to be cryogenically frozen. He confessed to other murders that no juror, law enforcement officer, or prosecutor investigated, because they found zero evidence for any of it. These were documented psychosis rantings, not credible statements. The "sex addiction" characterization came from a doctor whose notes were subsequently destroyed.
Denies jurors were "partying with law officers" or having barbecues. They each had their own individual rooms, long-stay style with kitchens. Calls out "Julie Melvin" by name as spreading this claim.
Julie Melvin has a stronger track record for accuracy than this interview demonstrates. More importantly, the Murder Sheet juror (not Julie Melvin) described the following during their own interview:
On the way back to the hotel, someone followed the jury transport and police had to intervene. Multiple times they had to take different routes back. The bailiff would get a phone call and reroute.
The former Delphi police chief resigned in shame for lying and official misconduct. The origin of those rerouting calls is worth examining.
The alternate juror (referenced as "she"/"Fig") stayed in a completely different location from the rest of the jury. They only saw her during court when walking into the courtroom.
The alternate juror's separate housing arrangement raises questions about whether all jurors were sequestered under identical conditions. Where was the Murder Sheet juror's room relative to the others? Did Judge Gull's own lodging change before or after the barbecue?
At the hotel, jurors were confined to their assigned floor and couldn't leave without a bailiff or officer. There was one communal room with snacks/donuts where they could mingle.
Who else was grilling at the hotel besides "Jason"?
During deliberations, jurors requested to re-watch Libby's Bridge Guy video. A few jurors wanted to hear it again to be sure. It was not unanimous that they needed it, but some wanted to re-confirm.
Every expert who was asked over the years stated that the limited pixel count and audio quality in the Bridge Guy video could not be used to make a positive identification of the figure or confirm the full audio content.
When re-watching the video during deliberations, jurors could get closer to the screen and were not confined to their normal seats. It was quieter. Hearing it the second time helped.
The jury only heard the Bridge Guy video twice total: once during trial and once during deliberations.
Key challenge in reaching verdict was piecing together everyone's timelines using the "big poster of the entire trail" and mapping each witness to their stated location and time.
Would not say whether any juror initially thought not guilty or had reasonable doubt. Said they had to go through things "more thoroughly" with the timelines, the video, evidence in the room.
The jury heard the Bridge Guy video twice. Going through things "more thoroughly" on the basis of two listens of a 43-second clip is a low bar.
Defense attorneys (Baldwin, Rozzi, Auger) seemed "lost." Juror thinks they were frustrated because the judge excluded third-party-suspect evidence they wanted to present.
Correct on the exclusion. Judge Gull granted the State's motions in limine to exclude the IPAS settlement, composite sketches, and additional defense witness evidence. Attorneys who are frustrated by a judge excluding their evidence are not "lost" they are constrained.
After the trial, juror learned about a video of Allen in Cass County jail threatening guards, saying "I'll kill you," making a throat-slashing gesture. Judge excluded it as too prejudicial.
Allen was held in conditions that a Treatment Review Committee of three independent physicians unanimously found produced psychosis. His reactions to those conditions were excluded from the jury's consideration as too prejudicial...The same jury that was asked to evaluate whether those conditions made his confessions unreliable.
Attributes "sex addiction" to "one of the doctors" and may be conflating trial testimony with post-trial information.
The sex addiction claim came from a doctor whose notes were subsequently destroyed. That doctor is not named here.
Wife told officers Allen ran over the 2017 phone with a lawn mower. Juror says she learned this AFTER trial: "at the time and during trial, I did not know that."
Kathy Allen said he ran over one of his Razr phones, not the 2017 phone. See #30.